Statement of Gen. H. Norman Schwarzkopf

May 11, 1993

Statement of Gen. H. Norman Schwarzkopf, USA (Ret.)

(112) service ---- Whether we like it or not, in my years of militaryI have experienced the fact that the introductionof an open homosexual into a small unit immediatelypolarizes that unit and destroys the very bonding that isso important for the unit% survival in time of war.For whatever reason,majority who oppose,the organization is divided into aa small minority who approve, andother groups who do not care or just wish the problemwould go away... 595-96

(113) However, in every case that I am familiar with,and there are many, whenever it became known in a unitthat someone was openly homosexual, polarizationoccurred, violence sometimes followed, morale broke down,and unit effectiveness suffered.has been my experience.Plain and simply, that596

(114) Will this same pool of high quality young men andwomen be available to us if the ban on homosexuals in themilitary is lifted? If what I am told by young men andwomen who talked to me is indicative, the answer is no.If what I am told by countless parents is indicative, theanswer is no. 596

(115) What about our troops' rights? Are we reallyready to do this to the men and women of our Armed Forcesand to risk a possible decrease in our Nation's abilityto defend itself simply to force our servicemen and womento accept a lifestyle of a very well-organized, wellfinanced,and very vocal, but what turns out to be a verysmall minority of our society? 597Statement of Col. Frederick C. Peck, USMC

(116) I spent 27 years of my life in the military, and Iknow what it would be like for him if he went in. And itwould be hell. And if we went into combat..., he wouldbe at grave risk if he were to follow in my footsteps asan infantry platoon leader or a company commander. Iwould be very fearful that his life would be in jeopardyfrom his own troops.And I am not saying that that is right, or wrong, orwhatever. I am telling you that is the way it is. Youget into war, the first casualty is truth; the second isthe value of human life. Fratricide is something thatexists out there, and there are people who would put myson's life at risk in our own Armed Forces. That is justone reason. That is a very important reason, for me,speaking personally about my own son, to counsel him notto go in the military. 602Statement of Maj. Kathleen G. Berqeron, USMC

(117) The introduction of homosexuals into thisenvironment, in my opinion, will not work. They will notgain peer acceptance. 604

(118) In my opinion, the introduction of acknowledgedhomosexuals into the Marine Corps will destroy this teambuilding process. Heterosexual Marines will choose notto live, socialize or recreate with homosexuals... 604QUESTIONS

(119) Colonel Peck: . . . if you open the door, then someonewho wants to be very flamboyant and very provocative, veryassertive, very demanding, very litigious about their sexualorientation would have just as much a right to serve. Andthat could be very damaging to our military image and oureffectiveness. 610

(120) Senator Levin: They simply say I am a homosexual.That would be enough, for you, to remove that person fromthe military. 618General Schwarzkopf: Right, because that would polarize theorganization. 618

(121) Senator McCain: Do you believe that recruitmentwould be significantly impacted if this ban were lifted? 621Colonel Peck: I think we have to look to our constituencyas it exists now, Senator.. ..the polls of the people whocurrently serve, the people who we have asked to join andhave come forward and joined, are against it....I was,frankly, shocked by the depth of their vehemence and howemotional they feel about this. 621-22

(122) General Schwarzkopf: It just plain and simply is thefact that open homosexuality is the problem... 627

(123) Major Bergeron: . . . I think in this time with an allvolunteer force it would especially impact on the qualityand the type of individual we then attracted into the armedforces.... I do not think the mothers and fathers of Americaare going to send us their children so willingly because ofthe way they feel about the issue. 630

(124) Senator Warner: . . . I am deeply concerned about thosewho hold religious beliefs. I am concerned about those gaysnow in the close for fear that a change in policy wouldcompel them to come out in some way, and that therefore theywould be concerned about their physical well-being. 637

(125) Colonel Peck: If we change this, we may have an eventougher time and might have to resort to the draft. 640

(126) Senator Smith: Well, in essence, if we havefeelings, whether they be right or wrong, if we havefeelings about ethical, moral, religious background, if themajority of the force feels that for whatever reason beinggay is unethical or immoral If against their religion, theywould have to in essence go against all of that moralupbringing... 641

(127) Senator Nunn: When both of you came out and decidedto make your announcement about your orientation, did youconsider the effect this would have on some people's moralbeliefs that you serve with? 670

(128) Senator Nunn: ...there are many religions thatbasically condemn homosexual behavior as immoral. I am notaware of any religion that basically takes anything evenremotely similar to that positions regarding race or gender.671

(129) Senator Warner: Give up the right to activelyprofess your sexuality among your fellow associates....Giveit up. and that seems to me what we are asking. You givethat up, then we will let you serve quietly, efficiently andpatriotically in every other way. 677

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May 11, 1993 Hearing

1. I am Major General H. Norman Schwarzkopf, United States Army, and I ampresently assigned as the Director of Military Personnel Management, Office of theDeputy Chief of Staff for Personnel, Department of the Army. In this capacity I amresponsible for the development and promulgation of Department of the Army policyregarding homosexuality.

2. The Army, like the other armed services, excludes homosexuals from militaryservice. Department of the Army policy with respect to homosexuality is mandatedby Department of Defense Directives 1332.14 and 1332.30. The policy on homosexualityis clear and unambiguous. Homosexuality is incompatible military servicebecause the presence of homosexuality in the military service seriously impairs theaccomplishment of the military mission. This policy rests in large part onunique nature of the mission of the armed forces and the special needs, without parincivilian society, that this mission creates. The basis for the military’s homosexualpolicy is expressed in the DOD directives and Army regulations as follows:

--Homosexuality is incompatible with military service. The presence in the militaryenvironment of persons who engage in homosexual conduct or who, by theirstatements, demonstrate a propensity to engage in homosexual conduct, seriouslyimpairs the accomplishment of the military mission. The presence of suchmembers adversely affects the ability of the armed forces to maintain discipline,good order, and morale; to foster mutual trust and confidence amongservicemembers; to insure the integrity of the system of rank and command; toquently must live and work under close conditions affording minimalfacilitate assignment and worldwide deployment of servicemembers who fretorecruit and retain members of the armed forces; to maintain the public acceptabilityof military service; and to prevent breach of security.

3. I have over 26 years of active commissioned service in the United States Army.During this time, I have served in a number of command and staff assignmentsand I have led troops in combat. Among these assignments, I have held the followingpositions: From July 1969 to December 1969, I was the Executive Officer to theChief of Staff, United States Army Vietnam. From December 1969 to July 1970, Icommanded the 1st Battalion, 6th Infantry, 6th Infantry Brigade, 23d InfantryDivision (American), in Vietnam. In October 1974, I became the Deputy Commanderof the 172d Infantry Brigade at Fort Richardson, Alaska. Thereafter, from October1976 to July 1978, I was the Commander of the 1st Brigade, 9th Infantry Divisionat Fort Lewis, Washington. From Fort Lewis I went to Camp H. M. Smith in Hawaiiwhere I was the Deputy Director for Plans, United States Pacific Command.Then, from August 1980 to August 1982, I was the Assistant Division Commander,8th Infantry Division (Mechanized), United States Army Europa. While in EuropeI was also the Community Commander for the Mainz Military Community. In August1982, I assumed my present position. I am a graduate of the United StatesMilitary Academy, the United States Army Infantry Officers' Basic and AdvancedCourses, the United States Army Command and General Staff College, and theUnited States Army War College. Additionally, I hold a Masters Degree from theUniversity of Southern California.

4. Based on my personal experience and observations as both a commander anda staff officer and on reports and studies maintained by my present office, I canstate that homosexuals are unsuited for military service for the following reasons,among others:

a. Homosexuals in military service have a direct, adverse impact on the moraleof other Army members. Homosexuals tend to polarize units. I am aware of instanceswhen heterosexuals have been solicited to commit homosexual acts, and,even more traumatic emotionally, physically coerced to engage in such acts. Suchinstances of homosexual conduct clearly destroy morale and elevate hostility towardhomosexuals.

b. Related to morale, but also an independent justification for the homosexual policy,is the respect for privacy rights of heterosexual servicemembers who wouldbe forced to live and work with homosexuals in conditions of minimal privacy. Evenin peacetime, soldiers often share living areas, shower and toilet facilities in barracksor onboard ships. Most servicemembers view being forced to sleep, shower anduse toilet facilities with members of the opposite sex an an infringement of their privacy.To force them to live under similar conditions with members of the same sexhaving a different sexual preference would be a similar infringement of privacy.This infringement would be aggravated in the conditions which prevail in combator simulated combat operations. It is not inconceivable that if homosexuals were almales,homosexual males, heterosexual females and homosexual females.lowed to serve separate living facilities would have to be provided for heterosexual

c. Allowing known homosexuals to serve would damage the image of the Army inthe eyes of the American people and demean its national role. Because of the prevailingaversion to homosexuals in our society and because homosexual conduct continuesto be criminal in many places, including the military, the Army would sufferin esteem if known homosexuals were allowed to serve. The impact on the Army'spublic image would also endanger recruitment and retention, by causing potentialservicemembers to hesitate to enlist, making parents of potential servicemembersreluctant to recommend or approve the enlistment of their sons and daughters inan organization in which they would be forced to live and work with known homosexuals,and causing members of the Army to hesitate to reenlist.

d. A policy which allowed homosexuals to serve would also have a deleterious impacton duty performance and unit cohesion, order and discipline. A military leader,whether an officer or a noncommissioned officer, known as a homosexual is unableto effectively command or lead his or her soldiers because of a loss of respect andtrust in his or her abilities. Further, homosexuals in leadership positions often developemotional involvements subvertin the traditional Arm concepts of disciplineand immediate response to order, whether popular or not. Likewise, a soldier's performanceof his or her individual duties could be influenced by emotional relationshipswith other homosexual, or the fear of disclosure of homosexual conduct orpossible criminal prosecution. Because of this fear, homosexuals may be increasedsecurity risks. These factors would certainly affect the Army’s ability to perform successfuly in peacetime or on the battlefield.

e. Finally, homosexuals, by definition are individuals who have an establishedprediliction for violating the Uniform Code of Military Justice through the commissionof sodomy. Exclusion of homosexuals from military service is a means of precludingmilitary service by a group of individuals who have a natural proclivity tocommit criminal acts.

5. The Army’s homosexual regulations are intended only to bar service by homosexuals;that is, only persons w o engage in homosexual conduct or who, by theirstatements, demonstrate a propensity to engage in homosexual conduct are prohibitedfrom service in the United States Army. The Army's regulations concerning homosexualsdo not afford a basis for bating the entry or for separating persons whosimply evince academic interest in homosexuals or their causes.

I declare under penalty of perjury that the foregoing is true and correct. Executedunder penalty of perjury on 29 October 1982, at Arlington, Virginia.

--H. NORMAN SCHWARZKOPF--Major General, U.S. Army

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that I could not be in a married life; and came to terms with whoI was, and had to deal with that.

The American Psychological Society has also said that homosexualityis not a mental disease. You know, this is something thathas been dropped from the diagnostic category, in the early seventies.And, you know, the American Psychological Society, the AmericanSociety of Social Workers, and the American Nursing Associationhave all suggested that this ban be overturned, because thisreally is a very, very disruptive regulation as it is; and they, themselves,think that, you know, we are beyond that point of callingit a mental disease.--Senator THURMOND. And so you sought help, but----Dr. CAMMERMEYER. They found out that I was okay.--Senator THURMOND. I would like to ask you other two, have yousought medical or psychiatric help to try to correct the situation?

Mr. PANICCIA. No, sir. I have never thought that there was somethingto correct. I function normally. I am happy. I function in society.I contribute something to the betterment of this country, atleast I did before I was discharged.

Sergeant ELZIE. Sir, I did not seek help, because as a UnitedStates Marine, the Marine Corps gave me self esteem and pride inmyself as an American fighting man. And they, the Marine Corpsteaches integrity, and to believe in yourself; and when I realizedwhat my orientation was, I carried that on out, and I did not seeany problem with that.

Senator THURMOND. Since you suffered the handicap that youhave, all three of you-

Dr. CAMMERMEYER. We do not consider it a handicap, Senator.Senator THURMOND. You do not feel that you need to take anysteps to try and correct it?

Dr. CAMMERMEYER. No, we do not.

Sergeant ELZIE. No, sir.

Mr. PANICCIA. It just is not, that just is not the way it is.

Senator THURMOND. Thank you very much.

Senator LEVIN. Senator McCain?

Senator MCCAIN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I thank thewitnesses for their testimony today. I am concerned about the impacton the all-volunteer force if the present policy were changed.We have talked to recruiters. I have talked to people like the CommandMaster Chief Petty Officer of the USS America. I have talkedto commanding officers, and I have talked to petty officers.

I have also talked to a number of parents, who have grave concernabout their sons or daughters enlisting in the military andhaving the situation different from what it is today: In other words,the situation with the ban lifted.

I do not see any prospects for this country returning to the draft,unless we are engaged in a conflict of a magnitude which is hardfor me to envision. For the foreseeable future, we will be dependentupon the all-volunteer force; which all Americans who know aboutthe all-volunteer force view as an incredible success. As GeneralSchwarzkopf testified, the all-volunteer force has the highest qualitymen and women that we have ever been able to attract andkeep in the military.

I would like to have your views on the effect on the all-volunteerforce, and on our ability to recruit and retain a highly qualifiedyoung men and women in the military. Doctor, we would be gladto start with you.

Dr. CAMMERMEYER. Thank you, Senator McCain. I can give yousome examples of what has happened in the course of the past fewyears, since I came out.

As you may know, I have four sons, one of whom was planningto join the Air Force; and, as a result of my separation, has chosennot to do that. I have co-workers whose children have told theirparents that, because of my separation and the regulation that discriminatesagainst homosexuals serving in the military, that theychoose not to think about the military as a career.

Senator MCCAIN. Children have to told you that?

Dr. CAMMERMEYER. Yes, that is correct. I have had phone callsand letters from professional people who were planning on joiningthe military, physicians, nurses, who said that, I cannot join underthe circumstances because in my society, and where I live andwork, there is no discrimination, and I cannot join an organizationwhere that sort of policy exists; when the issue is sexual orientation,and not the ability to perform their job.

Senator McCain. Then these people must have been unawarethat this policy has been in effect?

Dr. CAMMERMEYER. These were people who heard about it aftermy separation.

Senator MCCAIN. I see. They were otherwise totally ignorant ofthe fact that the military excludes gays?

Dr. CAMMERMEYER. They were civilians. That is correct.

Senator MCCAIN. Interesting group of people. Please go ahead,Chief.

Dr. CAMMERMEYER. Civilians.

Chief AMIDON. Yes, Senator, I will not claim to be an expert onrecruiting or in any of the recruiting capabilities of our country,but it seemed to me from the testimony of Mr. Korb, I tend to agreewith it, with the testimony of Mr. Korb, that if we drop the banthere will be a very little impact on our military. I really think agreat deal of what we are observing right now is an enormous rippleover all the publicity that arose over this issue. But I think theactual dropping of the ban will have very little effect,

There was a lot of concern, it seems to me, when President Trumanlifted the ban on blacks serving in the military, that peoplefrom the southern states would no longer want to serve. Well, inmy experience, sir, the southern states of this country still provideprobably the largest number of individuals entering the service;and I expect that those sort of trends will continue.

Senator MCCAIN. Thank you. Mr. Paniccia?

Mr. PANICCIA. I think the best way for me to respond to that isto tell you about a group of people that are absolutely phenomenal.They have been a tremendous sense of support for me. They area national, actually an international, organization, and their nameis Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays. And they are literallythousands and thousands of our mothers and fathers and auntsand uncles and friends and relatives, who are tremendously supportiveof people like myself and all the other panel members.

And they have all said to me, in various ways, that they just simplythink that they could not tell their children, who are not gay,they could not tell them that they would wish that they go in themilitary, those that were interested, while this ban is in place. Sowe are seeing just the opposite.

I point this out because I think a lot of times you, we do not necessarilysee all that is there. And a group like this, and there aremany others, is I think a very good example that this is the restof the picture. It is not necessarily, before looking at that, it is notnecessarily the whole picture.

The other thing I think I will say is that, really, this issue willbecome a self-fulfilling prophecy if we continue to just say, “It won’twork; it won’t work,” then certainly it will not work. But when westart looking, I feel when we start looking at the facts, we startlooking at the lives that are impacted adversely as a result of thisban being in place-and I am speaking, of course, of people likemyself-1 think that is important to realize. If we simply say, wekeep saying this, “It won’t work,” then sure, it is going to be a selffulfillingprophecy.

Senator MCCAIN. Sergeant Elzie?

Sergeant ELZIE. Yes, sir. I can kind of speak from my own experiences,sir, because at one time in my career, I worked as a recruiterand actually was, by my CO, they wanted me to go on toRecruiter School; but I opted to go back to the fleet. And sir, oneof the things I realize in that why young people join the military,is not for a socially conscious issue. People join the military, fromwhat I have seen, the young men coming and the young womencoming into the office, for educational opportunities, travel, to leavehome honestly, to experience life, and to serve their country. Notone of those people that came in ever mentioned the issue of gaysand lesbians in the military; never raised the issue, well, that theycould not serve next to a black person, even though, you know, Ihave heard racist statements in the military; I mean, that was notwhy they joined the military. And as far as a volunteer force, Ithink it is going to continue to be an outstanding force. One otherthing that I have noticed since coming out, I did an interview withMTV and have had some young people come up to me after watchingthat and, of course, our young people growing up today watcha lot of television, watch their, these people on television. And whatwe are hearing a lot on television now is tolerance; and trying toget rid of hate and bigotry. And I have had young people in thehigh school in Jacksonville, North Carolina, where Camp Lejeuneis, come up to me after I spoke there and say, “Hey, we supportwhat you are doing. And we cannot understand what the issue is.”And so I think the volunteer force is going to continue to be allvolunteer,and outstanding.

Dr. CAMMERMEYER. If I could just make one comment, also.Many of the university campuses where the ROTC programs arenow in place are also being challenged because of the regulationand equal opportunity for everyone. And so, you know, it is morethan just some of the parents and that sort of thing. But the kidsthemselves are also reacting to the policy; at least those that aregoing to be the officers of tomorrow.